Curse

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 05, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I would like to start off by saying that I really enjoy Guild wars and that Anet have done a fantastic job in pretty much every area. The Game is wonderful to look at, very well balanced and you can tell it is and continues to be a labor of love for the whole team. I also fully recognize that I have zero visibility of the business and development plans ahead. All I know is what I can see and observe.

Hopefully Anet will take the time to comment on this post and put to bed once and for all the issues surrounding Europe and to some extent Korea regarding the favour WaW implementations. It IS a long post and I humbly request that AN will take the time to read it.

Indeed Anet are probably the most responsive set of developers I have ever purchased a game from(and I bought 3 copies of GW so the whole family could play). However this responsiveness is a double edged sword. People demand attention and fixes almost on a continual bases and I’m sure Anet considers and notices them all.

I am also aware and grateful of the long hours and heartache that has gone into the preparation of Sorrows and Grenth and how that must have taken priority and I understand and very, very much appreciate that.

However, I would like to focus on one issue that affects many thousands of players across two thirds of the regions in the Guild Wars game. That one is the current implementation of the Favor system. Note throughout this letter I am talking about Korea as well as Europe but since I live in Europe I have done the most analysis on that region.

If I am wrong, then I humbly apologise, but I care enough about the game and the people I meet not to sit down and not query the status quo.

I am sure when the game was first designed the World at War concept was great(and indeed it is a great idea) and that the idea of having the world fighting for supremacy in an RPG excited the developers and beta testers no end.

However, and I believe through no fault in the game design. The current WaW implementation has led to a significant number of people
o Being disenchanted with the game and leaving
o Changing to US servers, thus reducing the gaming experience and pleasure for those left behind.
o Taking up AN PR bandwidth by asking questions about it

I base these view on simply going round and noting the numbers of people in most regions. It’s got to the point where I am seeing the same names again and again wherever I go. If the game in EU was highly populated I should not be remembering characters I saw the day before.

Other methods I used we’re chatting to friends, reading forums and noting what people were saying in all chat.

I’m sure AN did not plan it out this way, it’s simply the effects of an evolving game. However, if something is not working, time to fix it.

To assist in my analysis and to make sure that I was dealing with what I observed rather than my opinion I have been noting down the dates, times and regions in which favour changed. I have done this for the past few days and I believe I have enough data for a reasonable trend to appear. To be sure I will update the graph and figures once Sorrows has been released so that a fair comparison can be made.

I’ve made a graph showing favor times according to date and time since the 31st of August till now. I am fully aware that these were recorded only when I or friends were online, so the picture is a little incomplete. I am sure AN will have the correct figures.

I have split out the European peak hours as a % as this represents the time when most people would be looking for Fow/UW access. Peak hours is when most players are home from work or school, and are able to play the game. To them it doesn’t matter if EU has favour outside of those hours as they are unable to play the game.

Notice the huge disparity between the US, Korea and the EU. Now, take into account the peak hours calculation and it become very clear what the issue is. Remember this isn’t perception it’s recorded data.

I won’t pass personal comment on the figures as they speak for themselves. Suffice to say in terms of ability to access these more challenging areas of the game, Korea and especially Europe is at a huge and very discouraging disadvantage.

There was statement made on a website that was part of Fansite Friday.
To be objective, no source was given to the statement, but since it was linked from the official GW website I can only assume that the statement is an approved one. As IMHO AN would not allow a potentially damaging statement to be linkable from their official site.

Even if the statement is incorrect it by no means invalidates the data and observations in this letter, but I have used it to highlight the issues some more.

Now, lets see how this matches up with my observations.

The tie between PvP and cooperative player was built with intent, as a design choice that helps to emphasize the dual nature of Guild Wars and to nurture the connection between the two types of players. As PvP players may engage in cooperative play in order to build their character, those who engage solely in cooperative play come to appreciate the access to new explorable areas made possible by the PvP player. We will continue to examine many aspects of PvP and cooperative play, and to weigh how they interact and nurture one another, as we launch the Sorrow's Furnace Update and while we prepare for the start of the tournament season.

I completely agree. The Waw Concept is a great idea. However as the above data shows, again thru no fault of AN it is now unbalancing the game, driving players away and causing a great deal of frustration to thousands of players.

Now we come to the contentious statement

Now, in light of this question, I want to say that we are very aware that players in Europe have less access to the Fissure of Woe and The Underworld than players from other regions.

Correct, as seen from the above stats EU only holds (5.14%) of the time.

This leads us to two things that we can do: (1) We can make adjustments to help balance that access out most evenly, and (2) We can expand content to allow the same type of fun, high-level exploration and combat in other areas that do not have the same sorts of access requirements.

Please can you confirm that you will be doing 1 AND 2, 1 or 2?

Now of course there is the alternative that more EU guilds fight in the HoH, but it is now a vicious circle. Why do I say that?

o People have left for the US servers reducing the numbers of available players
o Language/culture differences
o Lack of interest in Pvp

Lack of favour and competition have driven EU guilds to the US, the existing EU guilds are valiantly trying to put up a fight(and us non PvP types really thank you for it), but often they are fighting a losing battle as if testified several times teams of one region decide to gang up on one of another there can and will only be one result.

The change to option 1 is logically trivial and needs only the removal of a single condition statement. If you still wanted to make the favor system mean something then add a faction multiplier if your region has favour. Again a simple change that has no negative effect on game balance, in fact it helps restore it

Logically, Two simple condition statements is all it would take to fix this(two if you wanted to still reward favour). Now I’ve not seen the code so cant say for sure of course, but logically this is all it would take.

I believe the solution is to increase faction rewards based on favor. It fits within the lore of the game, is easy to do and rewards both PvP and PvE players alike.

Fissure of Woe and The Underworld are both fully optional.

IMHO this is incorrect, when your region does not have favour those areas are closed, therefore it is not optional(or even fully

). Optional means that you choose to go there or not

Yet we realize they are elite PvP areas, and that for some players, they are the most fun and the most rewarding areas in the game.

Correct, they are also the source of the most valuable and elite items in the game. They also represent a repeatable source of XP and therefore skill points, thus affecting all areas(PvP and PvE) of the game. Not being able to obtain skill points so rapidly in the EU/Korea regions creates an imbalance in the game, in addition to the obvious reduction in gameplay experience issues.

But consider Sorrow’s Furnace and Grenth’s Footprint. They will be more readily entered – no cost, no timing issues – and they will offer the same quality of experience and reward as Fissure of Woe and The Underworld for high-level players. By offering these new areas, we provide a variety of experiences and opportunities, and we will continue to expand such options in the future.

This is very much appreciated and we are all looking forward to playing it, however both these areas are available to the regions with favour. So no matter what is implemented(unless it’s favour based) then the game imbalance will still be there.

The above reads like Sorrows and Grenths is an alternative to the Fow/UW, and indeed it is. But it is only a true alternative if all regions are open.

For example let us say it takes 100 hours to complete the Pve side of the game. The UW and Fissure will take on average 15 hours to complete all the quests(from experience). That means that for 95% of time Europe has 15% LESS game content for the same or more amount of monetary investment in the game. Adding more content, available to all regions. Does not detract from that fact, although it may reduce the percentage somewhat.

The Frog/Dev And Gaile Grey have stated that people would be rewarded for staying in Europe.

Please can you state now and clearly what those rewards are going to be. IMHO you owe it to thousands of people wanting full and unrestricted access to your superb game to change the way the systems works, as by the numbers and analysis above it’s clearly broken.

I honestly and truly believe that a "dont worry we're working on it" will not help resolve the issue, but only add to the frustration.

For example, if I said to you

Use my eight bedroom house as much as you like for 50 bucks, don’t worry about using four of the rooms tho as the other four will keep you happy for hours. Oh, and don’t worry about the Americas, although they paid the same (or less than you) they can use all eight most of the time, but honestly your four will suffice for all you want to do.

Wouldn’t you feel cheated? Wouldn’t you want to have the option of using the other four as well?

There have been a number of suggestions on how to change the current system, and I do trust in your ability to make the correct choice. However, hopefully this long missive makes it clear that something has to be done to resolve this issue, otherwise I fear for the longevity of the game in the European servers and the ability for Anet to maintain interest in GW up to and including chapter two.

Remember, logically one simple condition change is all it would take. Over to you AN and thanks for reading.

Brett Kuntz · Sep 05, 2005, 02:05 PM // 14:05

You need to consider the lack of Euro and Korean players though. Last we've heard number wise there was 650k copies of GW sold in the USA, and only 75,000 in Korea. I'm sure Euro is a smaller number as well, but nothing official has been released. It only makes sense with the game being slanted that way USA will win more often. It doesn't matter, because UW and FoW are maps for the PvPers, not PvEers or Roleplayers. They are my reward and any other PvPers reward. I believe the system should remain the same, and have no changes other then adding even more maps for us PvPers.

Aniewiel · Sep 05, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

I think that this is more appropriate in the Sanitarium. I'll move it there.

Other than that, all I can say is....wow.

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 05, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Kunt0r

I want this thread to be free of discussion so as not to muddy the waters for AN.

But 1. the FoW etc are PvE areas, and 2. dont the 75,000 users in Korea and say 100,000 users in Europe deserve the same amount of game content, esp if they paid the same or more for the game and the content is there in the first place...

Shan

Alex Weekes · Sep 05, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I'd really like to thank Shanaeri Rynale for the large amount of work and thought that has gone into this post. There's a lot of very valuable material presented here. All I can say right now is that the issue has been noted, and the team are looking at options (as indicated in the material you quoted).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

You need to consider the lack of Euro and Korean players though. Last we've heard number wise there was 650k copies of GW sold in the USA, and only 75,000 in Korea.

Actually, the 650,000 number you refer to was for both Europe and America combined. I cannot give you any numbers, however sales in Europe have been very strong (#1 UK PC game for six weeks after release, and has stayed strongly in the top 5 since then, #1 post-release with strong follow-up sales in other regions as well) and have remained strong. And, despite player perceptions, we have seen very strong numbers of players participating on the European Territory. It is a fallacy, myth ... call it what you will, but it is most definitely inaccurate to say that Europe is short on players.

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 05, 2005, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Thank you for a prompt response Alex.

Please can you give a timescale for when these options are going to be finalised and implemented. Days, weeks, months, next release?

Can I be cheeky and ask you what region servers you play on?

Brett Kuntz · Sep 05, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

it is a high level area for PVE not an ARENA for PVP

It was at implementation, and still is, a reward for top tier PvPers and their 'area' to play in. It is not needed to beat the game, not needed to earn experience, not needed to earn gold, or items, or armour. Those maps are purely bonus, and I believe they should only be availble to the 'area' that's holding, or recently won, Tombs. It's impossible to argue you need to play there to have fun, because there are many many other areas for you to play in.

It is not ArenaNET's fault that the Favour isn't completely balanced, and then again, should it be? You can't balance something that's left entirely up to a player base like Favour is. Anyone, at any time, can go win Favour for their area. You do not need special items, gold, or have to play for atleast a certain amount of time before getting it. There is not a single thing in the entire GW game or community holding back Koreans and Europeans from winning it other then the fact they simply chose not to. Should the game, should one of my PvP rewards, be changed because some people are too lazy to earn it? After all, UW and FoW are two bonus's that reward player skill and not time played, one of ArenaNET's goals.

Sandman Uk · Sep 05, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

Actually, the 650,000 number you refer to was for both Europe and America combined.

Alex and of that 650k what percentage of European sale PVE players have now transfered to the USA servers because of favor issues.

I have been arguing the same argument for the past 3 month's regarding favor. And I will hold my hands up and say that if I had not been locked in the Euro region I would have transfered month ago.

PVP and PVE dont mix. The favor system on paper before the launch would have seemed a great idea. But how its panned out has left it very unfair on Europe. Why??

I IMHO I say its a Meglomania thing between Usa and Korea. Europe being very laid back with PVP and various Language difficulties. And the longer its gone on the harder it will be for Europe to even challenge now in PVP.

I do hope you change the favor system. Its the only thing that lets the game down for PVE European players like myself. There have been some great ideas for an alternative

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

should one of my PvP rewards, be changed because some people are too lazy to earn it? After all, UW and FoW are two bonus's that reward player skill and not time played, one of ArenaNET's goals.

Thats a bit strong Kunt0r

Why is a PVE player wishing to enter the UW/FIS classed as lazy because hes being forced into PVP play that he doesnt want to so that he can then continue in his PVE role playing.

Is there an super elite area in PVP that requires you to come to PVE to open it up. When there was and you had to come out to earn your skills and Runes there was uproar. And it was imediatley changed so you could then change Faction into your skills/Runes.

And who really comes out of the Halls after a win so they can go into the Underworld. Would you

P.S
Great post Shanaeri
/Respect

Loviatar · Sep 05, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

edited as per next post

Aniewiel · Sep 05, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

kunt0r and Loviatar:

Given how hard Shan worked on the original post, please do NOT hijack the thread by getting into a semantic argument about PvP vs. PvE. If you wish to continue the discussion, please start the billionth thread about it in the Riverside OR take it to PMs.

Thanks.

Gwahir · Sep 05, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Just like to say that it might be in ANet's interest to not fix this.

I'm a Euro player, I'm moving to university accommodation next week, so i'm not sure if I'll be able to play Guild Wars (connection firewalled by university). If I can, I'll be buying another copy of Guild Wars and having an American account. Purely so i can get into the UW/FoW more.

I've played through the whole PVE 4times (W/Mo, Mo/W, Me/N, E/R) and although some parts have been different, it's generally more of the same. I have been to the UW and FoW as often as possible but considering my favourite character to play is the W/Mo, i find it very difficult to get into a PuG and 60% of the PuGs i go to UW or FoW with have someone useless in and dont make it past the first quest. Add to that the fact that we only have favour about 5% of the time I play, I don't get to go to the UW/FoW an aweful lot, even though they're the only parts of the game I want to play properly but haven't.

I've Dabbled in PVP but have been put off since getting absolutely hammered in the Ascalon Arena by people who seemed absolutely invincible to me at the time and used skills i'd never heard of. (I know now that they were wearing Droknar's armour).

Anyway, my point is, I think ANet have 2 choices:
1) change the favour system, keep european players like me happy and more likely to buy Chapter2
2) keep it the same, the hardcore of players will buy another account so they can play in the UW/FoW and maybe buy chapter2. whilst the casual gamers just spend their money on 1 copy and are less happy so dont bother with chapter2.

GuildWarsPlayer · Sep 05, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Should the game, should one of my PvP rewards, be changed because some people are too lazy to earn it? After all, UW and FoW are two bonus's that reward player skill and not time played, one of ArenaNET's goals.

As long as you're a PvP player that wins HoH and then goes to the PvE part for Fow / UW, it does make sense...

But I believe that most USA PvE players aren't bothered to play PvP, thus benefiting from something that isn't due to their skill.

One last thing i would say to the people from Anet: GW is absolutely BRILLIANT, the best RPG-oriented game i played since a very long time (since Dungeon Master from FTL to be precise ^^).

Brett Kuntz · Sep 05, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Thats a bit strong Kunt0r

Why is a PVE player wishing to enter the UW/FIS classed as lazy because hes being forced into PVP play that he doesnt want to so that he can then continue in his PVE role playing.

Is there an super elite area in PVP that requires you to come to PVE to open it up. When there was and you had to come out to earn your skills and Runes there was uproar. And it was imediatley changed so you could then change Faction into your skills/Runes.

And who really comes out of the Halls after a win so they can go into the Underworld. Would you

I knew this post was comming

First, lets point out that players want to enter these maps, they don't need to. It's a want, not a need. PvEers that want to enter these maps should encourage and support PvPers from their area to win it for them. Maybe offer them gold and items? Up to you.

All PvP area's require PvE to get to. I had to earn all of my Arena's, my tombs, and my Guild Hall, all through PvE play (minus Sigil through PvP play). I never complained about this because a) it was fast, b) only had to do it once.

Unlike the bonus maps which are a want, Skills, Elites, and Runes are needs. You need them to play the game. You cannot play the game without them.

I have personally gone to Tombs when another area held it just to take it away from them, but no, I myself did not go right into UW/FoW afterwards. But I bet the thousands of people who did were thankful my guild won it for them.

Quote:

kunt0r and Loviatar:

Given how hard Shan worked on the original post, please do NOT hijack the thread by getting into a semantic argument about PvP vs. PvE. If you wish to continue the discussion, please start the billionth thread about it in the Riverside OR take it to PMs.

Thanks.

Neither Lov or myself have attempted to hijack this topic. Both of us are discussing exactly what this topic is about: Favour, and all the sub-topics that come included with that such as the maps themselves, their content, and who plays on them. The moderators of this forum need to stop powertripping and trying to lock, move, and delete as often as possible. You might get more respectfull people posting legitamite discussion here, instead of how it currently is where a topic gets locked as soon as someone posts up "Hey wait a minute...I think you're wrong..."

I always thought forums were for discuissing things, not for someone to make a topic then you prevent all discussion about said topic.

Quote:

As long as you're a PvP player that wins HoH and then goes to the PvE part for Fow / UW, it does make sense...

But I believe that most USA PvE players aren't bothered to play PvP, thus benefiting from something that isn't due to their skill.

I do not win Favour for myself, as I could care less about PvE. But I do win it for my area because I do enjoy the fact they get to play on the bonus maps because of my hard work. That is my only reward. Sigils are useless.

Sandman Uk · Sep 05, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

First, lets point out that players want to enter these maps, they don't need to. It's a want, not a need.

Of course I need too
I want to complete 100% of the game. Ive paid my money like everyone else. Why shouldnt I want to enter the areas. But im being forced into the PVP part of the game to progress in the PVE part I love.

PVP and PVE should be a matter of choice not forced upon you to progress.

Gaile Gray · Sep 05, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Thanks for the post, Shanaeri. I will pass a link along to the designers, as I know they will be interested. When you ask about a timeline for changes, I should point out that the dev team is currently working on the Sorrow's Furnace Update, on Observer Mode (in preparation for the Tournament, another large undertaking) and, of course, on the second chapter of Guild Wars. This is not to say, however, that the issue of assessing Favour is not a priority. It most certainly is on the list of objectives in the near term. I cannot give you a date or time for this, in part because it will be an ongoing assessment, but the we'll continue to monitor the situation, by all means, as we are actively doing even now.

You mentioned that your figures were taken as you or your friends were able to ascertain Favour. I don't see any that are "blank," though. Is there some assumption in the table? You see, with no missing spots -- all being marked NA, Korea, or Europe -- yet the mention of missed data (which is perfectly understandable!), I just want to check if that is all-inclusive or not.

On a side note, I was in Guild Wars quite a bit this weekend. Each time, I saw Europe hold onto the Hall of Heroes. She had many challengers, and in fact was just two away from loss at more than one point, but she did rebound and keep the Favour, despite the efforts of Korea and NA to assume the role of victor. It will be interesting to know if there was an upswing this weekend.

Thanks again for your analysis and your suggestions!

Rey Lentless · Sep 05, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

There needs to be repeatable quests available (not by making a new character) for people who currently do not have favor. If sorrow's furnace is accessible whenever, and has repeatable quests.. then I say problem solved. If it isn't, then it's still a problem.

I do like the idea of 'favor' and have it be a rewarding thing, but there needs to be more options for the pve player.

I would bet 99% of the pvp players do not do the tombs to get access to UW/Fiss. I think the people who enjoy UW/Fiss are not generally the people who enjoy doing the tombs (in general).

I do think the pve players in Korea and Europe have it rough and hope something changes for them.

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 05, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Thank you for the response Gaile. Yes there is a degree of assumption there, but I think we missed only 2-3 hours a day(from 3am-6am GMT+1 ) which although favor could change it is unlikely to in those hours(most sensible europeans being asleep and all that, and the fact that it takes 5 consecutive wins etc).

Would you be able to share your findings or your own monitoring data? It would help show things in a more correct light, and allow us favor watchers to at least get some sleep.

I fully realise and appreciate the huge efforts your team go to, in making GW an enjoyable experience, but can we not have something done in the interim to allivaite things e.g 3 wins instead of 5. Thats just a simple single digit change in a constant or condition and requires minimal testing. Heck, mail me the source code and i'll do it for you, gratis(well free fissure armor for life)

Yes I noticed that Eu had favor more this weekend, but I suspect it being a public holiday in the US was a significant factor in this success.

I will update in a weeks time when the effects of sorrows etc can be taken into account.

Not for Gaile>P.s it's not just about repeatable quests it's about variety and volume of content

Brett Kuntz · Sep 05, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandman Uk

Of course I need too
I want to complete 100% of the game. Ive paid my money like everyone else. Why shouldnt I want to enter the areas. But im being forced into the PVP part of the game to progress in the PVP part I love.

PVP and PVE should be a matter of choice not forced upon you to progress.

No, you do not need to. You did not pay for 100% of the game, no where on the box, in the license, in any agreement, on any website, does it say when you pay for the game you are entitled to all of the games content. Those maps are only PvP rewards and bonus's, they are absolutely nothing else. You are not forced to PvP to get access to thjose areas, because you are not forced to play those areas. You only want to play them. There is nothing in them that you need to enjoy 100% of the game. They are bonus, as in, above 100%. Please get your facts straight before argueing about Favour and/or the bonus maps.

Como Fort · Sep 06, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I'm from Europe, and as far as I'm concerned if you can't be bothered to win HoH then you don't really deserve to be going to UW and FoW. The guild I'm in try hard to win favor for Europe and we usually win HoH at least once everday. Its not anyone's fault that Europe is multi-bilingual, but most people still are taught English at school. Lets face it, Europe is generally n00b so its us that has to improve, not the way of getting into these bonus areas.

Gwahir · Sep 06, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Unlike the bonus maps which are a want, Skills, Elites, and Runes are needs. You need them to play the game. You cannot play the game without them.

how so? You can play PVP without any skills or runes or elites.

you need to use elites and runes to play PvP?

No, you do not need to. You did not pay for 100% of the game, no where on the box, in the license, in any agreement, on any website, does it say when you pay for the game you are entitled to be able to win in PVP. Those skills and runes are only PvE rewards and bonus's, they are absolutely nothing else. You are not forced to PvE to get access to those things, because you are not forced to use those things. You only want to use them so you can win. There is nothing in them that you need to enjoy the game. They are bonus. Please get your facts straight before argueing about it.